Impact of New Gambeson Technology on Infantry Unique Units

  • This topic has 15 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by Suicidal_Sayori.
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  • #25141

    After seeing a low-quality meme about Samurai by u/29Rogans, the author started considering how a civ’s champion unit buffs could make their unique infantry units weaker in comparison.

    Some UU’s received buffs, including the serjeants, shotels, berserks and gbetos, but there are some civs whose unique infantry units did not receive a buff, even though their champions did.

    These civs include Aztecs, Celts, Dravidians, Franks, Japanese, Malay, and Teutons.

    The author examines each one, highlighting their unique infantry unit and how they will be affected by champion unit buffs.

    They suggest ideas to buff the weaker units, such as giving the Jaguar Warrior more hp or giving the Woad Raider an additional attack.

    They note that the Urumi Swordsmen are fine as is and that the Axemen could use a cheaper upgrade cost.

    They propose giving the Samurai a bonus against siege or against final upgrades of common unit lines.

    Karambits will likely be fine as they fill a different role than the trash two-handers.

    Finally, the Teutonic Knight already has ridiculous stats but the author suggests giving the elite version +1 PA to make them better against their counters.

    #25142
    mangobadaboom
    Guest

    Just make them priced appropriately.

    The cost differential between regular infantry and UU infantry makes no sense.

    Since this cost differential plays heavily into what trade-off your effecting by using the unit it seems ridiculous to have the differential be so much larger than other UUs w.r.t.

    their generic counterparts.

    For example Jaguar Warriors cost almost 38.5% more per unit than Champions.

    The only foot archer UU that gets close to that is Rattans at 35.8% but this unit is *crazy* strong against all sorts of archer units.

    Meanwhile Jaguars have much worse performance against all infantry units than rattans do against archer units and unless they want to pull a “Jaguars take less damage from infantry” change the easiest way to fix it is just make the cost differential appropriate for the trade-off.

    Same thing with Woads.

    What do you get for your 38.5% more cost?

    You’d think they’d be really good at sniping siege like bombard cannons to allow celts to use their own siege.

    But they really aren’t that good at doing this because they cost so much and die so quickly.

    If they were cheaper (and especially less gold heavy) this wouldn’t be as much of an issue.

    Then you’ve got ETK which is 92% more expensive than a militia line unit.

    Guess what this allows for?

    Aztec and Burmese *champions* cost-effectively killing ETK.

    The ETK is basically the Rattan archer of the infantry world and yet the cost differential is way larger.

    Makes no sense.

    Samurai are in the same boat.

    The others prices aren’t really an issue but the above 4 definitely are.

    #25143
    Azot-Spike
    Guest

    Aztecs: For sure.

    Jaguars are one of the most affected units by this change.

    They are faster to tech into, and I believe the change could be rising their speed to that of Huskarls

    Celts: Woads’ extra speed makes up for the lack of pierce armor.

    Now that Champs have more pierce armor, it feels compulsory to reduce the Elite upgrade cost

    Dravidians: Urumi don’t need any buff

    Franks: Axemen are anti-infantry and one of the best anti-Skirm unit before Gambesons.

    They can keep that role (although I thought that Franks didn’t get Gambesons)

    Japanese: Samurai Need for Speed (sorry for the joke). +1 pierce or extra speed could be good buffs for it

    Malay: Not a bad idea to increase a little bit the attack rate so that they become an army of mosquitoes

    Teutons: No, I wouldn’t touch my capey boyz

    #25144
    CamiloArturo
    Guest

    Jags on the contrary are becoming essential since we will see a lot more champs around now

    #25145
    Tarsal26
    Guest

    Jag warriors got a buff sort of since opponents will think twice about making infantry against jag warriors.

    I would just make them all cost 20 gold not 30.

    This means they become really good in the late game as gold runs thin.

    #25146
    RingGiver
    Guest

    I must admit that I don’t play AOE2 as much as I used to, but how often do people actually use throwing axemen?

    #25147
    Aggravating-Skill-26
    Guest

    Jaguars – Increase their speed so they can move with Eagles.

    Not as quick but nearly as quick.

    Woads – +10 hp, can take extra shots while raiding and also sync with the new healing bonus.

    Urumi – Probably unique in enough with the charge attack

    Axeman – Underrated Unit, probably strong enough.

    Samurai – They have + bonus attack vs UU, now add +3 UU armour.

    Makes them really strong vs range UU now.

    Maybe add +5 Hp to elite

    Krambits – -5food cost, helps get the spam going earlier with a lower Eco.

    Free armour now makes a potential FC UU strat viable.

    Teutons – Super niche, but allow Monasteries with a Garrisoned Relic allow Teutonic Knights to be created from that Monastery.

    Not my idea, someone else suggest that on this sub, but I tested it out and it opens up a Hoang Rush Monk Siege Infantry strat that is actually alot of fun.

    Good for Arabia map and sometimes for Areana with Siege Towers.

    #25148
    ColdPR
    Guest

    Lower jaguar cost

    Woad maybe a slight speed bost

    Samurai again coat is too high.

    Needs to come down or get something to make it a choice vs champion

    Serjeant probably too expensive

    #25149
    Ranulf13
    Guest

    > Franks:

    Franks do not need buffs.

    The TAxes are fine and fulfill their role still.

    Better champions havent made them worse.

    > Celts:

    I feel like powercreep racing woads vs champs is futile.

    Make Woads faster moving instead, so they are the more mobile infantry and retain that role.

    #25150
    Ok_District4074
    Guest

    I’d be fine maybe just giving Teutonic knights the ability to dodge arrows..It would make sense on account of the cape.

    I’m sure they could jump over them or something.

    #25151
    before_no_one
    Guest

    >Jaguar warriors were never that great.

    Sure they can be somewhat useful vs goths or Meso civs, they are pretty meh to begin with.

    Now, champs will become tankier to missile fire, thus making the Jaguar warrior even less useful.
    >
    >Idea to buff them: Give them more hp to make them tankier (maybe +15 hp for elite version?)
    >
    >Could also simply give them +1 pierce armor so they match Gambeson champs
    >
    >Woad raiders are decent units but now will become even less useful as general purpose combat units since champs will have +1/+1 armor compared to them.

    Idea to buff them: Give them +1 attack to make them hit at least a bit harder

    Woads are almost always a better choice than champions unless you’re fighting vs other champs (or cav, but in that case you just make halbs).

    Their elite upgrade could be decreased in cost but other than that the unit is fine

    >I think samurai need a slight buff now with their champions being the better choice now almost always.

    Perhaps giving them a bonus vs siege would be good?

    Or give them an attack bonus (can be small) vs final upgrades of common unit lines (champs, paladins, arbs, imperial camel, heavy horse archer) to increase their usefulness.

    Or just increase their pierce armor the same way that they should do to jags to match Gambeson champs

    >I think Karambits will be fine since they fulfill a different role than the trash two-handers.

    Maybe decrease the elite attack rate to 1.8?

    They’ll still be bad vs high armor targets but will be better against soft targets

    Karambits are perfectly fine in fact they are arguably too strong now after all the buffs

    #25152
    iSkehan
    Guest

    Don’t buff Franks in any shape or form.

    Besides TAs are better than Champs by a big shot.

    Great list otherwise.

    #25153
    PMMePrettyRedheads
    Guest

    Buff for samurai: 1% chance to negate all damage, teleport behind the attacking unit, kill it instantly, and say “omae wa Mou Shindeiru”

    #25154
    scarvet
    Guest

    Nothing.

    Good UUs still works and less desirable ones are still not desirable.

    #25155
    Snikhop
    Guest

    Arguably as long as they beat Champions cost-effectively they’re de facto buffed by a shift to an infantry meta.

    Make a unit more popular and its counter also becomes more important.

    This whole post is like the definition of ‘Power Creep’.

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