Why Doesn’t Artificial Intelligence Have Enough Power to Always Defeat Human Players?

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  • #4202
    Blocklies
    Guest

    Yes aoe2 ai could be made into a powerful weapon but the problem is that it’s probably too hard to program and has to be constantly updated for every balance change/dlc.

    I also think the devs aren’t gonna make an ai that fully flexes its ai muscles by: using score and scouting perfectly to figure out what its opponent has, dodging shots perfectly while shooting at perfect intervals, calculating the perfect route for its vills and military to avoid walking time are all things it’ll be able to do and I’m sure everyone is gonna be annoyed at an ai like that because it does everything perfectly.

    It’ll also auto queue units or something so it doesn’t have idle time at all.

    #4201
    NotAnotherEmpire
    Guest

    TL, DR: It’s pretty easy to make a difficult AI but not one that plays like a human.

    AoE2 is an extremely complicated game.

    It has different “players,” resulting in different combinations and a heavily randomized element compared to board games.

    AIs are dominant at chess because they can see all permutations a human theoretically could, and then pick the best one.

    And then do it over move depths humans cannot see.

    And chess has rules that define all those moves.

    AoE2, besides those diverse elements, doesn’t have a limited move set and also has fog of war.

    So the AI can’t play with deep, reliable prediction – which is one of the things AI is best at.

    Even if it correctly scouts that you don’t have walls, that may change by the time its attack reaches you, and then it has to learn about the walls for the first time.

    The *other* thing that AI is best at is impossibly fast reactions and multitasking – and this is deliberately restricted in AoE2.

    I played some rushed AoE clones in the early 2000s where they didn’t properly control the AI and that was a waste of time.

    Not that it was smart – it was rock stupid – but it was so absurdly fast and persistent.

    #4200
    Jarazz
    Guest

    AoE2 AI isnt made to be OP, its made to mimic a human opponent, train your general aoe2 skills, and most importantly be fun to play against.

    Getting repeatedly destroyed by humanly impossible micro isnt very fun, and the top players who could beat that are playing online anyways

    #4199
    FISO99
    Guest

    There are some, I remember there was an AI tournament a while ago and you can still watch some of it on YouTube, and while human decision making can’t really be replicated, you can see some humanly impossible micro, the one I remember the most for how broken it seemed was multiple target selection by groups of xbows that reduce overkill.

    #4198
    LS_77
    Guest

    The short answer is that nobody has bothered putting in the time and effort to create an AI that skilled.

    I imagine doing that is incredibly difficult.

    Aoe is also far more complicated than chess, especially from the perspective of programming an AI.

    #4197
    Celmeno
    Guest

    The game is AI is coded by hand.

    That is very very time consuming and difficult to do.

    This games best AI is far far outranking the ones in other games as it does not cheat.

    To not have a super frustrating experience you also need to limit the AIs APM and reaction time (some older games just did this through code execution time but the issue here should be very obvious).

    There used to be AI building competitions and the best ones were usually beating most players (discounting the “Top 100”).

    Now, if we were talking advanced machine learning the likes of AlphaStar that would be a very different matter.

    Here, we could go for something that wins against everyone.

    But AoE2 is different to SC2.

    More variety, less micro, more macro.

    If we have a sophisticated system we could let it learn from a few (ten) thousand pro games and then let it play against itself for a few million games.

    Then it might actually be able to rank top 100 in the ladder.

    But at this point, we invested millions in computational budget.

    Not even accounting for the manpower to design the model.

    Build the pipeline.

    Reevaluate.

    Tune.

    Etc.

    #4196
    cadbury162
    Guest

    The game is really complicated, it’s hard to make an AI for it.

    Comparing it to chess isn’t fair, it has clear, defined rules and moves, AOE doesn’t.

    I won’t go as far as to say AOE has infinite moves at any given time but it is orders of magnitude higher than chess and practically it might as well be infinite.

    There’s the added challenge of people wanting the AI to feel like playing a human.

    You can make a cheese AI that wins against most (and there are mods like that) but most people playing the game don’t want that.

    #4195
    MrStealYoBeef
    Guest

    Chess is a one move per turn game with a static number of pieces and very limited number of valid moves on an 8×8 grid.

    An RTS is about as close to infinitely more complex as you can get, as the objective requires constant expansion and complexity, with what may as well be an infinite number of possibilities.

    The AI either has to be scripted, and thus absolutely cheeseable (every script has some kind of move that confuses it and forces it into an illogical self destructive loop), or it has to be so complex that it can’t run locally due to size and computational constraints.

    They’re really not comparable.

    #4194
    _genade
    Guest

    It is easier to build AI that is superhuman at chess than to build an AI that is superhuman at Age of Empires, maybe excluding simple micro techniques.

    The reason is that the way we know how to make superhuman AIs is through reinforcement learning applied to neural networks.

    But to do that for a computer game, like Age of Empires 2, takes vastly more computing power than for chess.

    Simulating a chess game is computationally quite easy, simulating an Age of Empires 2 game is not.

    #4193
    Ok-Mammoth-5627
    Guest

    Every time I see a thread like this I think this guy hasn’t done any coding and their only AI knowledge is from science fiction

    #4192
    Warlover1
    Guest

    Takes a lot of work to build a competent ai.

    That’s why most games just give cheats to ai on harder difficulty.

    In aoe2 you would need to teach an ai to recognize a lot of different playstyles.

    Yes the ai can be made to micro but it doesn’t have the ability to be creative without 1000s of games to analyze and would need to be constantly updated to keep up.

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