Discussion of Civilizations’ Infantry and Eagle Units: Part Three
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Greetings everyone!
We have already discussed Elephants and Camels, so today we will be looking at civs with an Infantry theme.
I would like to emphasize that everything I write is to promote discussion, and not meant to be a formal proposal.
For the Aztecs, the unit that has been talked about the most is the Jaguar Warrior.
Suggestions such as extra speed or pierce armor have been made in the past.
In my opinion, they are fine as is.
I agree that in the late game, Jaguars may be overshadowed by Garland Wars Champions.
However, Jaguars are much quicker to tech into, and they don’t need 4 techs and Garland Wars to be effective against Longswords or their upgrades.
According to the combat simulator, Jaguars without Elite and without Garland Wars can handle generic, fully upgraded Champions in equal numbers.
Moving on to the Celts, I have a few thoughts on their balance.
I think Stronghold should have an effect on Town Centers.
Additionally, I think the Elite Woad Raider upgrade should be a bit cheaper in terms of Gold (1000F 500G instead of 800G).
For the Goths, I wouldn’t change them.
We know what they can do, and the current balance is good.
Buffing their early game would break them, and nerfing their spam would make them bland.
The Incas have been talked about recently, with some people asking for buffs.
I don’t think they’re the most boring of the three American civs.
I wouldn’t call any of the 42 civs boring, and certainly not the Incas with their Eagles.
My discussion is about their both UTs.
Should Andean Sling, given its situational effect, have its cost lowered or at least its Gold cost turned into Wood cost?
Should Fabric Shields have its cost lowered, given that it affects three separate units that we’re not going to see together (the three of them)?
The Japanese are hard to distinguish from Samurai to Japanese Champions.
Samurai only make a real difference when fighting UUs, and not many UUs can be chased by Samurai or be worth making Samurai against them.
Would 2 pierce armor for Elite Samurai be too much?
Would it become the ultimate trash killer?
The Mayans are balanced and I can’t think of any change for them.
The Slavs have increased their Cavalry identity with Detinets.
However, they’re still seen as the middling Cavalry civ.
I think they are the number one contender for an existing civ that could get 2HS in Castle Age.
With free Supplies, they could have a way to go for infantry in Castle Age and prepare a Druzhina powerspike for not-so-mid Imperial.
The Teutons have been singled out by TheViper as the first UU he could think that could see a buff.
But, buffing them a bit would make them OP.
More speed would go against their identity and would be too much of a buff.
A lower cost would make them easier to mass, but that doesn’t solve their role.
What about them getting 3 pierce armor?
Do TK really need any change?
The rest of the civ is fine to me.
Lastly, the Vikings are similar to Elite Berserks and 84HP FU Champions.
Berserks fare a bit better against Paladins, are easier to tech into (if you don’t get Bersererkgang) and regenerate.
Is that regeneration enough to tell them apart from Champions’ role?
With Berserkergang regeneration speed becomes more significant.
If that were the silver lining for Berserks, shouldn’t that tech be a bit cheaper?
Then you’d probably have to decide between quality over much more quality.
I look forward to hearing your feedback!
Have a great day!
I would bump the Speed of Samurai and Jaguars to 1.05 (from 1) so they are as fast as zerks, making them able to fulfil their counter role just a little bit better and also increase their survivability a bit
Been following your series for a while and wanted to post earlier, nice work!
I think Slavs need a buff in some way or another just to create an identity at the least for them.
Unless the site tracking stats for TTL is bugged or wrong, they have been picked **only once** across two seasons of TTL in both platinum and gold leagues and didn’t get to feature either when picked.
That’s shocking for a civ in a tournament with several different maps.
Only two other civs have 0 wins in Burmese and Koreans and they’ve both been picked 6 and 9 times respectively at least.
At the least I’d start by giving them their old farm bonus back, it was powerful back when there weren’t other similarly powerful eco bonuses but since then we’ve had folwarks, garrisoning sheep, free mining upgrades and more that I’m forgetting.
Detinets was a good start but they haven’t really been buffed in any other way.
The only reason I can think of for the devs not touching them much is for them planning to split the civ like the old Indians which would be a cool idea too.
I’d also like to see them get some form of usable cav archers or at least something geared to making them viable as historically Rus’ cav archers were quite good and a heavily armoured counter to the Mongol and Tatar cav archers
Hi there!
Looks like I’ve missed previous discussions.
So much to catch up 11.
Anyway, here are some of my thoughts:
I want to see some changes to Goths, because I think no civ should have bonuses that encourage laming and this whole insta loom and more damage to boar help pretty much only in those forward villager shenanigans.
Should they get something in return?
Probably, longer lasting hunt gets mentioned every once in a while, and honestly it should be fine.
Tatars have a similar thing with their sheep and it isn’t game breaking.
About Vikings, now that they lack thumb ring, both UT’s should be made cheeper to compensate.
Sure, they have very good economy, but Chieftains, Berserkergang and elite upgrade together cost exactly 4000 resources!
Also Slavs should get more love, UT change is nice but it didn’t help their identity crisis at all, if anything it made them even more similar to Bulgarians.
Actually, Slavs might be the only civ in the entire game that doesn’t have any map where they are a strong pick.
And I don’t thing castle age 2HS would change that.
I’d rather see them get some sort of buff on their monks now that Bengalis went Orthodox, because if they had a great answer for BBC’s, they would work fine on arena at least.
Also, we’ve finally stopped pretending that Sicillians are an infantry civ?
To add up to other comments, at this stage I’d be tempted to buff further Celts.
They have been massive victims of the recent powercreep, up to the point where they feel below average everywhere except Black Forest, and unseen in recent tournaments.
I wouldn’t mind seeing them recover the Dark Age infantry speed bonus, or get one of the missing final armours, or some kind of (historically relevant) bonus to their light cav, or secondary light cav UU.
A cool idea I have for Teutonic knights would be too buff them based on number of relics.
Say add 0.05 speed for every relic collected (up to 4).
This fits the overall theme of the civ.
Or make them producible from monasteries after first castle goes up.
Or make them give a pass regen aura of 20 hp/s that DOES NOT STACK. (they are kind of monks).
Or give them an x% chance to convert enemy unit they attack (again they are kind of monks)
I think the Aztec military creation speed should be the thing most emphasized in its design.
The number one thing controlling infantry casualties in any scenario is their replenishment rate.
Being a civ that can easily transition between beating infantry, beating cavalry, beating siege, and beating archers, I think the thing they’d need more than a “Win more” button against infantry civs, is a swifter eco->mil conversion tool.
I don’t understand the need to buff TK when they are such monsters in melee combat and the latest buff for the castle age version is kinda insane
Teutons are an “infantry” civ that also have FU heavy cavalry (minus husbandry, + armor).
They don’t need more versatility for the TK.
Incas have a fully usless ut in andean sling.
Their eagles are the worst of the three.
Yes they do best vs ranged units BUT thats what they always did already.
Buffing their armor was equal to killing a bug qith a boot rather than a shoe, simply overkill.
The other two give large boosts in health and damage which propels their eagles into a stronger universal role.
I dobt see why we cant do more like giving the incan eagles a bit of infantry and eagle armor to ut the bonus damage from champs and hand cannons down a bit.
Jaguars move some of the Anti-Infantry bonus to their attack to compliment their Garland Wars UT: 10/12 (+10/ +11) > 12/14 (+8/+9).
Samurai, make them attack even faster 1.43 > 1.2.
What seperates Zerks from champions is they have the same pierce armour as a paladin.
They’re not hard countered by arbs.
yeah, they take 1 more damage than E Serjeant, but they have the speed to make up for it imo.
I would love to see a tech that would turn teutonic knights into crusader knights.
Making them faster as they are mounted ( slower than a knight, but faster than any infantry ( apart from eagles )).
This tech would also make only crusader knights as trainable.
the crusader knight would lose 1 damage, gain 20 hp, 1 pierce armour and lose 3-5 melee armour instead.
On death, it will spawn a teutonic knight with quarter the hp of a usual teutonic knight after 2 seconds ( they still can get killed by archers, but they will deal with infantry threats like halbs really well as the 25 hp will make them a melee attack sponge, without completely negating their range weakness).
the crusader knight would hit harder than a cavalier and tank arrows better, but at the same time, would be slower and would fulfill a great rule in the teuton tech tree ( allowing the slower tks to get close to deliver their sheathe and stab payload )
For Goths, what about something crazy like: Hunters can carry up to 150 food?
This would mean that 1 vil could go out hunting.
This would obviously make is super dangerous if that vil were to be lost in the way back with 125 food….
A weaker early game bonus would be: hunt (and maybe sheep?) doesn’t decay.
This would not only give a very small boost to food available, but would also mean that having a bunch of animals killed under TC doesn’t wouldn’t hurt.
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