Discussing Balance of Camel Civilizations Part Two
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Greetings everyone!
After discussing the Elephant civilizations yesterday ( [Civ Balance discussion Part 1: Elephant civs : aoe2 (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/10v5ndt/civ_balance_discussion_part_1_elephant_civs/) ), today we’ll talk about the rest of the civs that have Camel Riders in their tech tree (Gurjaras, Hindustanis and Persians were discussed yesterday).
I want to remind you that everything I write is meant to stimulate discussion, and not to suggest any formal changes or to say that I think a civ is perfectly balanced.
Here are my thoughts on today’s civs.
**Berbers:** I think they are balanced, even though they don’t have a great early game economy.
I have noticed that Berbers are one of the least used civs for Water maps.
They don’t have a Shipwright, and their 10% faster ships don’t give them an advantage in water maps.
Is there anything that can be done to help them without disrupting the balance of the game?
**Byzantines:** I think they are balanced.
I wish they could fix Greek Fire so that Fire Ships don’t miss so often from long range, but that’s all.
**Chinese:** We all know that Chinese are a difficult civ to balance.
If we buff them, the pros will make them overpowered.
If we nerf them, noobs like me who mess up at the start of the game will be at a serious disadvantage.
The best option is to **leave them alone**.
Should the Great Wall lose its Stone cost?
**Cumans:** They are balanced and unique.
I like them.
We’ll have to wait for Nations Cup 2023 to see how Cuman players use Cuman Mercenaries to judge this tech.
**Ethiopians:** I think they are fine.
Their Archers and free Pike upgrades were at first seen as overpowered, but their lack of Bloodlines and PBA, and Champions, makes them balanced.
**Malians:** They have bonuses and powerspikes that make them unique.
They have options against all types of combos, but they are not overpowered.
The longer lasting gold helps their Imperial Age gold availability, and I don’t think they need any changes.
**Mongols:** Balanced and cool.
I would like Nomads to affect Castles and TCs, not just houses.
It would be worth it, especially on Amazon tunnel, Black forest or Arena maps with limited space.
**Saracens:** They have seen two popular buffs – Mamelukes are no longer Archers, and the “mehest” tech has been replaced in Imperial Age with a useful tech.
The flavor of Saracens is undeniable and I am happy with them as they are.
They have answers for many types of gameplays, and their unique Market helps them balance their economy.
**Tatars:** They have enough tweaks to differentiate them from other Cavalry or Cavalry Archer civs.
They have a mounted option for most enemy compositions and they have enough powerhouses for offensive purpose.
I wouldn’t change anything in their tech tree or bonuses.
**Turks:** I would like to discuss the possibility of them getting Steppe Lancers, which would be historically and geographically accurate.
The problem is that Turks already have arguably the best free tech for Relic fighting on Arena (Light Cavalry upgrade).
Adding Steppe Lancers would give them an advantage on Arena, and pros could make them overpowered.
I haven’t proposed many discussions today, but you can suggest some.
I promise to have a couple of interesting suggestions for discussion tomorrow.
Have a nice day!
I can’t really figure out Malians.
The extra gold doesn’t come in until very late and at that point your units are kind of meh.
I guess you can spam more Farimba Stable units but that’s not even good in some matchups.
Maybe Tigui needs a buff, 11.
>Turks: I’d like to bring the discussion of them getting Steppe Lancers,
First the Burmese Elephant Archers post, and now this.
I must ask, how is one person so based?
Yes balance-wise there are questions.
But I am of the opinion that using mathematical changes or removing certain upgrades (like Elite Steppe Lancers), anything is possible.
Saracens do feel somewhat unbeatable in Imperial.
Tatars don’t really have momentum, but the increased max food is great for archer builds.
my brief thoughts, in no particular order:
top tier civs:
Chinese – top open map civ (both 1v1 and TG), more average on water and very closed maps.
Mongols – good open map civ, not the best closed map 1v1 but top closed map civ for TGs, also good open map 1v1.
Mid tier:
Berbers – above average civ on most settings but not a stand out, suffer a bit on 1v1 arena.
Byz – above average 1v1, average or below on many TG settings however.
Cumans – average 1v1 open map, above average closed maps, top civ on many closed map TGs.
Etho – very good TG civ both open and closed maps (flank), above average on most 1v1 settings, maybe struggle most on 1v1 ara even.
Turks – very good in closed maps both TGs and 1v1s, average open maps.
unpredictable:
Saracens – the team bonus, decent water strength and strong late game are good, but they are quite reliant on market abuse to give strength in 1v1s which is difficult to utilize to full potential.
below average:
Malians – average early game and weak late game makes them weak on most closed maps and only average on 1v1s, are top on nomad though.
>Is there anything we can do about that without breaking the water or the civ balance?
what water civ balance?
When have we ever had that in this game?
As for Saracens it still irks me that mamelukes die so hard to camels.
They should get bonus damage vs camels, which is slightly less than they get vs cavalry.
Same way camels and spears get bonus damage vs cav and slightly less vs camels.
The main thing stopping me from playing Saracens on arabia and going for mames + siege stuff (same sort of thing as conqs + siege) is that I might run into a camel civ and just die.
It seems that camel civs (that aren’t Gurjaras) are pretty much all balanced, case closed 11
Now seriously, I like Turkish steppe lancers idea.
And I believe it shouldn’t affect them on arena – light cav should be still better when fighting for relic control because of conversion resistance and the fact that you can start massing scouts in feudal
About Berbers, I think thy are in this spot where they aren’t good enough to be specifically picked on water maps, but if you random into them you won’t complain.
If we want to make them a bit more water focused, I’d give them Gurjara bonus of garissonig fishing ships inside docks, because Gurjaras aren’t good on water maps anyway (you can’t afford to make both a mill and a dock) so this bonus is kinda wasted.
Tbf ideally I’d like to see garrisonable docks become a standard for all civs, if we’ll ever get a water overhaul
Other than that, not much to discuss here, very balanced set of civs
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