Award the Goths an Increase of 10% in Population
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Yes to this.
Absolutely
I mean once the +10 pop becomes relevant you already have Huskarls tearing down all your stuff, increasing/changing it does nothing.
Goths problem is getting there in the first place
that won’t fix them but make them just more oppressive on lower levels
they have an incredibly high win-rate in games that go long, even on high level.
it’s really about getting there for them, not about the lategame itself.
I totally disagree.
It should be plus 12.5%. 🥴
Arguably goths don’t need help in late imperial age though.
Surely they need help earlier.
[deleted]
As a Goths enjoyer, I’ve long held the opinion that this kind of buff is probably the type of buff *least likely* to make Goths oppressive.
However, I’d also rather see Goths remain as one of the worst civs in the game than see their identity as “the late-game horde civ with a weakness early on” changed.
*The Goths are unbalanced by design*.
The goal of the devs when they created the Goths was to make a civ that, if left unchecked, would be able to roll over opponents with raw numbers.
It evokes the mass migration of European peoples into the later Roman Empire.
The way the Goth ability to swarm over opponents is “balanced” has long been their distinct lack of early-game economy bonuses and defensive structures.
The strategy to beat the Goths has always been “kill them early.” The devs have even recommended this approach. (The latter half of [this vid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhn-D5OgtE) provides a decent overview of their design and how it has changed over time).
*When the Goths have been given strong early-game bonuses, such as free loom, the result has been an oppressive Goths.* (Here is a video from that [era](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNA7CeHt3jY); the SotL video linked above mentions their oppression when given 35% discount in Dark Age).
This should be expected because it is removing the only thing that was keeping them “balanced.” If the Goths are to be given anything for their early game that would substantially help them, they would almost certainly have to lose power elsewhere.
Such a loss would likely change their identity.
The current issue with the Goths, as I see it, is that *their reputation for being super strong in the late game is unearned*.
If the Goths player makes it to the late game, they will almost always be playing from behind, and their late-game isn’t strong enough to bring them more than a [measly 50% win rate in games lasting 50+ minutes](https://www.ageofstatistics.com/statistics/sliding?game=aoe2&period=p03_v09&filter=rm_solo_all)*** (where they are supposedly “super strong”).
Not to mention the abundance of anti-infantry units and the general problems infantry have with low speed and health.
*If we wanted their overall win rate to improve without changing their identity, buffing their late game would thus be the correct choice*.
A slight increase to their max population bonus would help them finish games where they make it to the late game with population intact without giving them any advantage in the early game where they should be weak.
However, it should be noted again that I don’t think the Goths *need* help.
They are fun as they are right now; I would loathe any change that altered their core identity in the name of making them stronger.
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***EDIT for accuracy: the Goth win rate for games lasting more than 40 minutes is 50% and it approaches 52.5% (+/- 2.5%) for games lasting more than 60 minutes.
It’s still not high enough to bring their overall win rate to 50%, and the cause is likely the Goths playing from behind due to a lack of eco bonuses and a vulnerability to raids and the Goths facing a plethora of effective counters and anti-infantry units in the late game which they struggle against.
Definitely should be changed to a percentage.
My main issue with the bonus is that the 10 population room isn’t balanced for lower pop games.
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