[Long Post] Explore the Fascinating Dynasties of China
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It seems that there is a general consensus within the community that the portrayal of the Chinese civilization in the game doesn’t match up to what is known about Chinese culture during the Middle Ages. The addition of the Dynasties DLC was a positive step in representing the unique culture within the region. With the stability of the India dynasties, it’s time to revamp the Chinese civilization. The following are some ideas for different Chinese civilizations:
– Jurchen: A cavalry civilization that values the prosperity of their farms and ranges. They have bonus damage against enemy land military units and can instantly research economic upgrades. They have access to iron pagoda, a heavy cavalry unit that is highly resistant to conversion.
– Khitan: A cavalry civilization that gained control of the Silk Road and forced the Song Empire to pay tribute for peace. They start the game with a free sheep and every town center they build spawns a free sheep. Their unique unit is royal ordu, a heavily armored cavalry archer.
– Ming: A gunpowder and defense civilization that defeated the Mongolian and claimed most of China. Their unique unit is fire lance, an infantry spear unit with charge attack. They also have access to treasure ship, a high HP cannon galleon.
– Song: An archer civilization that was conquered by the Mongolian Empire but was still an economical and technological powerhouse. They start the game with three extra villagers but with reduced food and wood. Their unique unit is chu ko nu, a crossbow unit that shoots in bursts.
– Tibetan: A monk and trade civilization that dominated the Tibetan Plateau and the Tarmin Basin. They have a discounted cost for monasteries and their technologies don’t cost gold. Their unique unit is gelugpa, an infantry unit that generates gold when attacking enemy units.While the Javas and SEA cultures may be underrepresented, there is not enough knowledge to suggest how to represent them.
Not sure about having both Ming & Song. AoE2 civs are not split by empires (ironically) but more by ethnic groups and cultures. Ming were still mostly the same people as Song, just with a different ruler (who was connected to the Song). We should stick with having the Chinese.
I understand the desire for a gunpowder-heavy Chinese civ, but I don’t think this is the way to do it.
Jurchens, Khitans & Tibetans are fine though. Although I see a potential resistance to adding the latter, so Tanguts would be the more likely addition.
>-Sheep available at Mill
Care to elaborate this? Do sheep endlessly spawn, or can you ‘train’ sheep and if so, what is the cost?
>Team Bonus: Villager Line of Sight +2
Too similar to Korean civ bonus.
>-Start game with a free sheep; every Town Centre built spawn a free sheep
This bonus feel unoriginal: it is the same as the Inca bonus + half the Tatar bonus
>Archery Units Movement +10%
Totally broken bonus. In the hands of a good player, the kiting will be off the charts and you can’t outrun these guys in archer vs archer battles when outnumbered, so you just die. Bear in mind, Lithuanian skirms are 5% faster. But that is for *trash*. Now you want to give double that increase to units that are actually *good*.
>Each garrisoned Relic gives +10 Max. Hp to Stable Units
So with 5 relics, your knights have +50 hp? Or hussars? This is ridiculously strong. You give this to a civ with bloodlines?
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-Trade Cart can garrison in Market; garrisoned Trade Cart generate gold at 50% speedHow do you determine the ‘speed’ in 1v1 or if your ally has no market? You’re basically inventing a feitoria
>-Orda: Turn Cavalry Archer gold cost into food
Trash cav archers that are fully upgradable? Insane UT! This kind of UT only works if there is some drawback to the unit, Poles cavalier missing the last armor, Malay militia line not having the champion upgrade, Persian xbows missing bracer and arb upgrade.
>Cavalry Archer. Heavily armored and +10 bonus damage armor.
What does this mean?
>-Sea Ban: Transforms player’s Fishing Ship into Heavy Demolition Ship
What?!
>Infantry. Spear Unit with 1 range. Charge attack +25/30.
How much does it cost? It sounds very powerful
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-Monastery Technology doesn’t cost GoldSo… all monastery techs are free except faith?!
>-Market Technology, Unit and Exchange Cost -10% (Sell Resource -10%; Buy Price -10%)
What’s the difference with Saracens, except the percentage?
>Infantry unit. Generate gold when attacking enemy units; benefits from Infantry and Monk Upgrades.
What does an infantry unit get from monk upgrades? I don’t get it. Say you get redemption. What does the UU get from it? Does it get +3 range form ock printing? I suppose you meant fervor and sanctity?
At the risk of sounding harsh, but many of these bonuses seem like they weren’t well thought out
Yuan dynasty – includes steppe lancers
Some interesting ideas but not remotely balanced. Ming’s first bonus alone would make for a massively OP civ. Other bonuses are too derivative (sheep spawn, Song Burgundian Vineyards knockoff) or gimmicky (self-trade by hiding in your own market).
I think Iron Pagoda would be good imp UT. Something similar to El Dorado but for steppe lancers. Also no Tanguts? They’re in Into China mission in Genghis Khan campaign. They would be probably camel/gunpowder civ (I read somewhere, they used BBC mounted on camels)?
I like the idea of an early / later Chinese split with the Ming, similar to the Burgundians and Bohemians.
No Han, Tang, Yuan, literally unplayable :p
Can we not split ‘Chinese civilizations’ into Dynasties? That’s like having succeeding European monarch dynasties as different civs that battle each other. You are ignoring the fact that the Songs are only confined to the ‘South’ by its second half of its lifetime. By this time a lot of your so-called Min people are much sinicized by this time period, stemming all the way from Western Han all the way to the Jin dynasty where flocks of Han people enters the south due to barbarian invasions. Like it or not, trying to force a ‘South China’ civ and a ‘North China’ civ is super absurd… it would work better if you really see China proper (as in the traditional Nine Provinces) as a distinct civilization. China is unique in a way that it managed (mostly) to sustain a massive centralized government for centuries and was able to push its governmental agenda throughout, at least in Han-dominant regions.
If you really wanna go for a Song-modeled China, please for Pete’s sake drop Chu-Ko-Nu as a UU. I dunno why Western games love this thing but they are pretty much obsolete by this period. I mean come on, their big boss engineers invented big ass bolt crossbows which need like 10 men to operate to penetrate Mongol heavy riders man, why not make those into the game?
I am not saying we shouldn’t add the Jurchens or any other neighboring states. I am just having having both Songs and Ming co-exist are weird. Your mentioning of the differences between how their central bureaucracy works are rather trivial; I am not saying there aren’t differences between the two but in the broader picture they are indeed both centralized and operated with the grand philosophy of the Mandate and confucian ideals of a structured society. We are getting off topic here.
The Songs while defined by their southernness cannot look pass the fact that they are still very ‘Han’ indeed, no matter in society ideals or government system. I would rather, if so insisted, make the Baiyue people you mentioned in your previous post a new civ ( even though arguably could be represented by the Vietnamese anyways) even though they are much subjugated by the Qin dynasty and well assimilated by this time period. Heck, even modern DNA between North or South Chinese are much closer than many would think if we really wanna dwell into genetics, but it was now well accepted that the concept of Han is rather a cultural one ( kinda like the Romans). You could’ve rather tackle Han presence in current Northern China ( i.e. where the Liao, the Jin dynasties conquered) by adding their characteristics into the Jurchens civ you mentioned instead, as they were subjugated by them as part of their empire anyway, even playing a key role in reforming their institutions from pre-dynastic steppe customs into one which encompasses different systems for each ethnic groups.
The so-called Chu Ko Nu, or Zhuge Nu, in nowadays spelling, is not really an artillery/field gun either, as we don’t even refer these short-ranged weapon like that.
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